Christian Nationalism: A Discussion With David VanDrunen

Introduction: What is Christian Nationalism?

What is Christian Nationalism? Is Christian Nationalism a dangerous idea? As a child growing up in the USA, I did not think of America as a specifically Christian nation. However, I do recall reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in kindergarten at the public school I attended: “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

In the past decade I began to hear the phrase “Christian Nationalism” more often, primarily from one of my liberal (non-Christian) friends, who used it a pejorative slur; a political dog whistle against people he disagreed with on social media.

The concepts of Christian Nationalism were developed in Europe — where many nations had (or still have) an official state church. For example, the Anglican church in England, or the Evangelical Lutheran church in Denmark.

Christian Nationalism Defined: A Hot Potato Tossed Around

Some people define Christian Nationalism as a political and ideological movement that seeks to merge Christian identity with national identity, often asserting that a nation’s laws, culture, and governance should be explicitly rooted in Christian or Biblical values or doctrine.

Others define Christian Nationalism as an ideological movement that promotes whiteness, racism, and nationalism (e.g. the corrupt state church of Germany during the 1940s). Ironically, this definition of Christian Nationalism tries to hijack the moral authority of Jesus Christ (via syncretism and propaganda), while promoting anti-Christian values; rejecting the Bible’s clear teaching about God’s love for people of all tribes, languages, and nations.

Rabbit Trail: Some are also arguing about the idea of nation states. Should people be organized as tribes, nations, or a one world government? See Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Restoring Responsible Citizenship

Christian Nationalism vs. Freedom of Conscience

Roger Williams, a 17th-century Puritan theologian and founder of Rhode Island, was a pioneering advocate for liberty of conscience, the idea that individuals should be free to follow their own religious beliefs without coercion from the state or church. His teachings on this were radical for his time and laid groundwork for modern concepts of religious freedom.

Williams argued that true faith cannot be forced. He believed that compelling people to conform to a state religion — or punishing them for dissent — violated both God’s will and human dignity. In his view, the government’s role was to maintain civil order, not to enforce spiritual uniformity.

He famously wrote in The Bloudy Tenent of Persecution (1644) that “forced worship stinks in God’s nostrils,” emphasizing that authentic belief comes from personal conviction, not external pressure.

He also introduced the metaphor of a “wall of separation” between church and state — centuries before Jefferson popularized it — insisting that mixing the two corrupted both.

Williams saw the state as a secular entity, protecting all consciences equally, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or even “heathen.”

This was groundbreaking in an era when most colonies, like Massachusetts Bay, harshly persecuted nonconformists. (Nonconformists rejected the idea that the state or a particular church could dictate personal belief, often challenging both religious and political orthodoxy.)

David Van Drunen and Chris Gordon Discuss Christian Nationalism

Does Jesus want a Christian nation? What are the dangers of Christian Nationalism? Pastor Chris Gordon welcomes his former Westminster professor Dr. David VanDrunen to the Abounding Grace Radio studio to answer this question and many more. They discuss one of VanDrunen’s books Living In God’s Two Kingdoms, as well as the writings of Doug Wilson and Stephen Wolfe, as they tackle the topic of Christian Nationalism, the collapse of Christendom and how believers should respond to a society spinning out of control. They look to the New Testament for guidance on how Christians should be spiritually framing our nation’s raging culture wars. This video was published on September 4, 2024 — well before the recent presidential election.

The key points discussed in the video are summarized below.

The Dangers of Christian Nationalism Related to Christ and Culture

The video begins with several recorded excerpts foreshadowing the discussion. One excerpt asserts that Christendom has been collapsing. How are we to live in a world that is filled with evil people? God is the one who judges nations. Dr. David VanDrunen suggests that Jesus does not want nations to be Christian nations. These spicy excerpts are meant to draw the listener into the discussion.

Dr. VanDrunen started at the seminary in 2001, teaching systematic theology and Christian ethics. Chris Gordon (the podcast host) recalls being intimidated by him initially, though Dr. VanDrunen was not much older than the students. The discussion aims to explore Dr. VanDrunen’s work on the two kingdoms and its relevance to current cultural shifts, particularly Christian nationalism.

The host plans to cover significant ground, challenge simplistic views, and push Dr. VanDrunen to clarify logical conclusions. They address the ongoing, heated debate over Christ and culture, referencing historical works like Niebuhr’s, which the host found fascinating despite its flaws.

Two Millennia of Tension: Christianity’s Cultural Dance

VanDrunen and Gordon discuss the complex and perennial relationship between Christianity and culture, a topic that has been debated within the church for nearly 2,000 years. This issue has become particularly heated in recent times, especially in the American context. They suggest that one significant factor contributing to this tension is the gradual collapse of “Christendom” over the past two to three hundred years. Christendom is described as a long historical experiment, spanning from the early Middle Ages to the early modern period, including the Reformation era.

During this time, there was a widely accepted vision of a unified Christian culture where societal institutions shared a common Christian confession, initially united under the Pope. Even after the Reformation disrupted this unity, many early Protestants retained the idea of Christendom, adapting it to a non-Roman Catholic framework. However, over recent centuries, this concept has been slowly eroding at varying paces across different regions.

Culture Wars Ignite: Moral Chaos and Christian Response

The discussion shifts focus to the United States, noting that the decline of Christendom has coincided with the rise of greater religious freedom, freedom of speech, and freedom of association. These liberties, combined with increased migration, have led to more pluralistic societies where diverse opinions — both trivial and significant — are more openly expressed. For Protestant Christians in the U.S., this period has been marked by significant advantages, including the freedom to organize churches, teach doctrine, and worship without government interference.

Additionally, they have enjoyed substantial economic prosperity and internal peace, with the notable exception of the Civil War. However, over the last few decades, many American Christians have perceived threats to these privileges. Religious liberty, once taken for granted, now feels less secure, and economic disruptions and financial crises have unsettled the comfortable lifestyle many had grown accustomed to.

This unease has been compounded by the emergence of “culture wars,” characterized by a perceived breakdown of traditional sexual norms, exemplified by the transgender movement, and a broader sense of moral chaos. These developments have intensified debates about the role of Christianity in culture, making it feel like a crisis to many. The speaker reflects on how Christians are grappling with questions about their responsibilities and loyalties in this shifting landscape — what they owe to their political communities and what they can expect in return.

The politicization of nearly every aspect of life has heightened these tensions, eroding the ability to “agree to disagree” on certain issues. Some Christian voices have responded with calls to “fight” and “take back” what they feel is being lost, asserting that someone must be in charge, and they would prefer it be them. This reflects a shift from patience and longsuffering to a more combative stance among some believers.

Two Kingdoms In Conflict?

Finally, the discussion touches on differing perspectives between Protestants and Roman Catholics regarding this cultural shift.

A story is recounted about a cardinal suggesting that Catholics are less engaged in debates like Christian nationalism because they never viewed the U.S. as “theirs” to claim, unlike some Protestants who feel a historical ownership over American culture.

This raises questions about whether the current Christian outcry is more about losing cultural privilege than defending core faith issues.

They discuss concepts from VanDrunen’s book Living in God’s Two Kingdoms, emphasizing a spiritual antithesis.

Reacting to Wolfe and Wilson

Next, the discussion examines the concept of Christian nationalism by referencing quotes from Wolfe and Wilson, who argue that the decline of cultural Christianity has led to a hostile secular environment rather than neutrality. Wolfe questions how much effort Christians expend to protect their faith and families, while Wilson asserts that secularism cannot sustain limited government and may lead to moral decay, such as celebrating practices condemned in scripture or permitting abortion. Both suggest that without a God above the state, the state itself becomes a god, necessitating a theocratic restraint to maintain order and liberty.

The conversation then shifts to a critique of this perspective, introducing the theological concepts of spiritual antithesis and common grace. The spiritual antithesis, rooted in biblical narratives like Genesis 3 and Augustine’s Two Cities, acknowledges an ongoing opposition to Christianity, which they deem unsurprising given scriptural warnings.

The Concept of Common Grace and God’s Providence

However, VanDrunen argues that Christian Nationalism overlooks common grace — God’s providence that sustains the world and its institutions, like civil government, for all humanity, not just believers. This common grace, distinct from neutrality, promotes peace and order across diverse societies without imposing one group’s beliefs. VanDrunen questions whether Wilson’s vision accounts for this, suggesting that historical liberal democracies have thrived without a Protestant foundation, challenging the premise that liberty requires a explicitly Christian civil order.

Is Liberty a Protestant Idea?

The dialogue explores whether liberty is inherently a Protestant concept, a claim sometimes tied to Christian Nationalism. Perhaps this view oversimplifies history, since American liberties stem from multiple sources, including the English common law tradition — rooted in the pre-Protestant Middle Ages with documents like the Magna Carta — and classical Greek thinkers read by the Founding Fathers. The discussion ties this to common grace, where God’s natural revelation and the “second use of the law” (restraining sin in society) enable all humans to grasp justice and order, not just Protestants. This challenges the idea that liberty requires a Christian government.

God’s Providence and Belgic Confession Article 13

The conversation then shifts to God’s providence, referencing Belgic Confession Article 13, which states that God governs all things, even amid human wickedness, in ways beyond human understanding. The speakers argue this implies Christians shouldn’t anxiously strive to “take back” society for God, as that rests within His decree, not human control.

Instead, faithfulness to God’s Word — living peacefully, loving others, and focusing on heavenly citizenship — should guide believers, not a militant push for power. They contrast this with Christian nationalism’s emphasis on reclaiming earthly dominion, suggesting it clashes with New Testament teachings. The discussion also touches on historical cycles of national rise and fall, proposing that Christians, like Abraham as a sojourner, must adapt to varying political contexts while remembering their true home is not earthly but eternal.

Cycles of Iniquity

The discussion continues with an exploration of “cycles of iniquity” in nations, suggesting that societies experience moral declines and crises over time, as seen in biblical examples like the Amorites. The speakers reject the idea of aligning with Jewish nationalism, referencing Jesus’ disinterest in earthly kingship, and propose that Christians must live faithfully regardless of a nation’s state — whether prosperous or under satanic influence.

Abraham: A Humble Sojourner

The conversation shifts to how Christians should engage with political communities, drawing from Abraham’s varied interactions with kings in Genesis. Abraham sometimes distanced himself from unjust rulers while forming treaties with those showing justice, illustrating a flexible approach to political involvement. They argue that Christians today cannot replicate past political relationships, like those in the 1920s, and must adapt to current contexts under God’s providence.

A key theme emerges: Christians are “sojourners and exiles,” not tied to an earthly homeland. They critique the notion of fighting for a nation as a primary identity, emphasizing that true citizenship lies in heaven. They reference Hebrews 13 and Colossians 3 to underscore the need for a heavenly focus over earthly attachments.

Critiquing Stephen Wolfe’s Views of Christian Nationalism

The discussion critiques Christian nationalism, particularly a quote from Stephen Wolfe asserting that Christians should resist assaults on their heritage. The speakers counter that the New Testament calls believers to rejoice in persecution, not fight back, aligning with the Beatitudes’ emphasis on humility and servanthood rather than power.

Masculinity in Christianity becomes a focal point, challenging Wolfe’s call for a robust, assertive faith. The speakers argue that true Christian courage involves enduring persecution, not retaliating, as exemplified by Jesus’ call to self-denial and cross-bearing in Matthew. They question whether Christians in power would avoid corruption, suggesting humility better reflects Christ’s mind.

How Should We Establish Social Order?

Wolfe’s vision of ordering society to God’s law sparks debate. While acknowledging Christians’ role in promoting justice, the speakers reject the idea of a confessionally Christian state fostering reconciliation with God. They distinguish this from basic civil order, which aids the church’s mission without merging sacred and secular roles.

Theonomy and Eschatology

The speakers address theocratic ideals, contrasting modern Christian nationalism with older theonomic views focused on Mosaic law. They note Wolfe’s rejection of strict postmillennialism and his philosophical leanings toward premodern governance, where the state shapes souls — a concept they find unbiblical in the New Testament context.

Critiquing Doug Wilson’s Views of Christian Nationalism

Doug Wilson’s framing of Christian nationalism — whether Jesus wants nations to be explicitly Christian — receives additional scrutiny. The speakers assert that the Bible does not require Christian governments, citing 1st Peter 2 to argue that the church is God’s holy nation. They warn against attaching Christ’s name to nationalism, risking misuse of His authority.

Wilson’s five questions for Two Kingdoms advocates demands a nuanced response. The speakers clarify that natural law and special revelation inform both church and civil realms, rejecting a rigid divide. They argue that civil government lacks a gospel mandate, existing instead to maintain order, not to redeem.

Challenging Wolfe and Wilson Claims About Christian Rulers

On Christian magistrates, the speakers challenge Wolfe and Wilson’s claims that rulers should oversee doctrine or fund theology, finding no New Testament support. They highlight the Old Testament’s failed theocratic kings as a caution, noting the New Covenant’s silence on such roles for civil leaders.

Wolfe’s critique of the speakers’ view on the cultural mandate — tying grace-perfecting-nature to ethnic governance— meets resistance. They argue that post-fall, the Noahic Covenant grants royal but not priestly authority to humans, reserving consecration for the church. This undermines Wolfe’s vision of nations ordering life to the sacred.

Christian Nationalism vs. The Church’s Real Mission

Finally, the speakers lament the distraction of Christian nationalism from the church’s mission: preaching forgiveness and an unshakable kingdom. They critique Wilson’s expansive view of eradicating global idolatry. Instead the church should focus on Christ’s work and the gospel.

Related Links and Resources

• Debating Doug Wilson Face to Face: Christian Nationalism, Federal Vision & Postmillennialism – on YouTube (2 hours, 52 minutes) ~ dated 6-Aug-2024
• Discussion with David VanDrunen on Christian Nationalism, Stephen Wolfe & Doug Wilson – on YouTube (1 hour, 37 minutes) ~ dated 4-Sep-2024
• Christian Nationalism Discussion With Dr. R. Scott Clark – on YouTube (1 hour, 39 minutes) ~ dated 2-Oct-2024
• Wolfe vs. Gordon: A Critical Conversation On Christian Nationalism – on YouTube (2 hours, 24 minutes) ~ dated 26-Nov-2024
• It’s Not Too Late to Abandon Christian Nationalism
• What Is Christian Nationalism? – Presbycast – published 18-Jun-2025
• Why I Am Not a Christian Nationalist
• The Shine Falls Off Christian Nationalism – by David Bahnsen ~ published 21-Nov-2024
• Resources on Christian Nationalism – at the Heidelblog

Living in God’s Two Kingdoms – A comprehensive review of David VanDrunen’s book.

A detailed review of David VanDrunen’s Living in God’s Two Kingdoms, exploring how the book articulates a biblical two-kingdoms model that distinguishes between God’s common and redemptive kingdoms, challenging popular transformationalist views of Christianity and culture while providing a framework for Christian cultural engagement based on biblical covenants.

Other Books by David VanDrunen

A comprehensive guide to David VanDrunen’s books from 2006-2023, exploring his Reformed theology on natural law, two kingdoms doctrine, Christian ethics, and political theology. Includes publication details and summaries of seven major works by this Westminster Seminary (California) professor.

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Published on 29-Mar-2025; updated on 16-Oct-2025